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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath (Read 656 times)
sierra
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #18 - Oct 15th, 2006 at 4:26am
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Hi Terence ~

Sorry I haven't read your reply yet  Undecided  I just rushed back here because Kevin was just teasing me about the newts being statues--how embarrassing!  I thought they were what the dictionary said....anyway,so just scratch that!  Forget that I'm an oreo please Grin
  
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Terence
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #17 - Oct 15th, 2006 at 3:56am
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You're doing very well with the images, Sierra. 

"Old cave of calcium  
Icicles, old echoer."

To me, the calcium would be bone. Perhaps the pelvis containing the womb as it is more of a cave structure. "Calcium icicles" could equally apply to ribs, though the ribs may possibly be represented by  

"Waxy stalactites  
Drip and thicken,"

It is also noteworthy that the above is how dipped candles are made.

"The blood blooms clean  
In you, ruby.  
The pain  
You wake to is not yours."

A reference to the same blood coursing through both bodies, transferring her own pain.
 
"Love, love,  
I have hung our cave with roses,  
With soft rugs -  
The last of Victoriana."

To me, this is a reference to the comfort of the womb and the blood vessels of the placenta which supplies nutrients and oxygen to the fetus through the blood. 

"Let the mercuric  
Atoms that cripple drip  
Into the terrible well,"

This is probably a reference to the fetal waste being returned to the mother's blood system via the placenta.

There may well be even deeper references involved though the above are expressive in themselves.
 
 
« Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2006 at 4:05am by Terence »  
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sierra
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #16 - Oct 15th, 2006 at 3:23am
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I didn't start to notice the repetetive O's either until after I had written about noticing the echos! Also, the repetetive "Love" and "Love, love.....I have hung our cave with roses" which seems to echo in desperation and then fade.  Must have some significance Roll Eyes....there is so much going on that it's time consuming (in a good way) to "wade" through it as you describe.  
« Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2006 at 4:33am by sierra »  
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nas
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #15 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 11:08pm
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I too like the notion of the echo and emptiness.  I hadn't thought of that.

Loaves and fishes had sprung to mind but I dismissed it.  It is only now you mention it Sierra that I see the relevance of the multiplying
  
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Tim
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #14 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 10:42pm
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Yvonne,

That's amazing. No, really. i never thought of the echo, and there it is in the repetition of the "O's" and other places you've pointed out.
Everytime some one jumps in with their intrepetation of this poem, more of it becomes unlocked to me. i wish i had done this a long time ago. 

Excellent intrep. i have to run to get ready for work tonight. i will be back late to catch up on anyone else's ideas. Hopefully Norm will jump in soon and offer some 'teacherly' advice.

~tim
  
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sierra
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #13 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 10:08pm
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I accidentaly had knowledge about what blue light meant because of a tragic incident detailed in newspapers about miners who became trapped  in a collapsed portion of a mine. 
At least I had one up there.  I can't however connect "old cave of calcium" to a womb or anything to do with bearing children. 

I may or may not change my first impressions of this--please excuse my slowness, I was never any good at this in school.  I was embarrassed and ashamed of my thoughts because everyone else seemed to know what they were talking about but me!  Nothing much has changed since then, lol.  But I wantto be a part of the action too Smiley  Here goes.

Back to the title again--but it just amazes me.  I was 
thinking Christmas (which really isn't way off in the 
larger scheme of things...what a gift this child brings), then the Nursery Rhyme came to mind (Jack Jumped Over the Candlestick) so I assumed this
has something to do with a child.



I am miner.  The light burns blue.
Waxy stalctites
Drip and thicken, tears

The earthen womb

Exudes from its dead boredom.
Black bat airs




It's apparent from these first few lines
that there is an aura of dark emptiness--coming from the earth--things happen in life to create deep
and surrounding sorrows of mind and body.  Things
we see, things that are done to us, things we do to 
ourselves. Surrounds her(N). Emptiness, barreness.
I see the black bat airs to be frightening,
a scary sort of thing .
Must be a very scary place she is,  within.



Wrap me, raggy shawls,
Cold homicides.
They weld to me like plums.



The  place is obviously poverty stricken, nothing there to
find to keep warm.  We don't give our children raggy shawls to wear, but someone or something has given them to her.  I think cold means callous here.  I'm not sure I like the image of the plums, but they are purple like bruises--but do you find them in a mine? (I guess this one).   



Old cave of calcium
Icicles, old echoer.
Even the newts are white,



I don't really get this part, except it alludes to
the emptiness, or depths or heights
of something where you would find/hear an echo.
What/who is the old echoer--would that mean "someone who creates an echo"?  Like a bible,
for instance?  It's yelling prophesies, about how we
should live our lives, and our mimicking of them?  A pretentious holiness (white newts)



Those holy Joes.
And the fish, the fish--
Christ!  They are panes of ice,



I see the multiplying of the loaves--a second time I see
the bible.  I don't really sense anger, but more of sarcasm here. I think the N is talking about hypocrits!



A vice of knives,
A piranha 
Religion, drinking



Its first Communion out of my live toes.
The candle
Gulps and recovers its small altitude.

The sarcasm continues--I like the sort of dual play
here in L1--you can read it two ways!  I wonder
why she chose toes?  Interesting, ironic, too, that anything considered 'holy' she considers vice!

I think nas has influenced my thoughts about the candle--but I think I agree about the fragile state of this candle.  I wonder if the baby lives--her son lives?



Its yellows hearten.
O love, how did you get here?
O embryo



I love this stanza.  ITs echo is far-reaching.  The love
between mother and child--there is no greater love than
that love.  That's what I see here.  How happy this must
make the N that the "yellows hearten".



Remembering, even in sleep,
Your crossed position
The blood blooms clean


It's an interesting take ( star-crossed lovers)--but I hope that isn't true.  I didn't see it that way, but yet again, I'm seeing an innocent suffering, like Jesus on the cross (crossed position). 



In you, ruby.
The pain
You wake to is not yours.


The baby must bear any inclement conditions
because it depends on the womb for its own life.    



Love, love,
I have hung our cave with roses.
With soft rugs--


Her love for him is a tender love (warmth, no raggy shawls)
not cold, fake like the world has to offer, has offered
her.



The last of Victoriana.
Let the stars
Plummet to their dark address,



Nothing but the finest for this child...nothing but the finest
IS this child.  The love between them is so solid that
the end of the world could not crumble the bond.


Let the mercuric
Atoms that cripple drip
Into the terrible well,


I'm hearing this awful echoing again--the drip,
drip, drip of a poison that causes this maming or death
of a whole or facet of a whole?   



You are the one
Solid the spaces lean on, envious.
You are the baby in the barn.


Dark, empty places need the light of love, if
only to lean on.  The world needs this kind of mother's love,
the world needs a child's love....the forebearing kind....the kind that is envied by those who can't for some reason or another possess it. 
I don't know.  This is as far as I got today.
  
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nas
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #12 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 4:58pm
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Thanks Tim

I intend to stay around, I'm very much enjoying this thread and the whole coach forum.  I never realised how interesting it was to try to analyse poetry (I hated doing it at school, mind you, I hated most things about school).
  
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #11 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 4:40pm
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Quote:
I don't think Nick is so much salvation but the thread her sanity is clinging on to.  He is precious and something that makes sense in a world of chaos perhaps.


Hey nas,

Thanks for joining in. Your first read is rather clear for someone not familiar with Plath. Well done, ma'am.

As far as the above quote, same thing.

Hope you stick around for this poem's finish,
~tim
  
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #10 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 1:12pm
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Ok, having read the comments  I wonder if rather than miscarriage there was an inability to get pregnant, which led to depression - hence the lines:

Quote:
The earthen womb   
Exudes from its dead boredom.   
Black bat airs


Perhaps there was a threat of miscarriage with the pregnancy of her son Nick

Quote:
Its first communion out of my live toes.   
The candle   
Gulps and recovers its small altitude, 


Quote:
Its yellows hearten.   
O love, how did you get here?   
O embryo


There is an element of surprise that she hasn't lost the baby, that it is still thriving inside her.

Quote:
Remembering, even in sleep,   
Your crossed position.   
The blood blooms clean


I wonder if here she is thinking back to previous miscarriages   
 
Quote:
In you, ruby.   
The pain   
You wake to is not yours.


I assume she is talking about her own pain/depression and that it isn't the baby's fault   
 
Quote:
Love, love,   
I have hung our cave with roses,   
With soft rugs -


perhaps she is taking great care not to lose the baby 
 
The last of Victoriana.   
Let the stars   
Plummet to their dark address,   
 
Let the mercuric   
Atoms that cripple drip   
Into the terrible well,   
 
Quote:
You are the one   
Solid the spaces lean on, envious.   
You are the baby in the barn.


I don't think Nick is so much salvation but the thread her sanity is clinging on to.  He is precious and something that makes sense in a world of chaos perhaps.

Very complex.  I think one needs to know more autobiographical information to truly understand this poem.  It is fascinating to try and analyse though.
  
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #9 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 12:51pm
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Firstly, I haven't yet read any of the replies to this thread as I like to approach poems initially with a fresh mind and form my own impressions.
I also know nothing about Sylvia Plath other than she was married to Ted Hughes and haven't read any of her work, so this is my initiation.

I'm not sure I really understand it and when I have typed this, I shall go back and read what has already been said.

The images I get from this poem are that it is about conception, pregnancy, miscarriage or perhaps health problems in the womb, fibroids or cancer.

Quote:
I am a miner. The light burns blue.   
Waxy stalactites   
Drip and thicken, tears   
 
The earthen womb   
Exudes from its dead boredom.   
Black bat airs   
 
Wrap me, raggy shawls,   
Cold homicides.   
They weld to me like plums.   
 
Old cave of calcium   
Icicles, old echoer.   
Even the newts are white, 


This paints quite a bleak picture.  Interesting move from the black of the bats - death, decay, to the red of the plums  - blood red  and the white of calcium icicles and newts (perhaps the newts means sperm).

Quote:
Its first communion out of my live toes.   
The candle   
Gulps and recovers its small altitude,   
 
Its yellows hearten.   
O love, how did you get here?   
O embryo   
 
Remembering, even in sleep,   
Your crossed position.   
The blood blooms clean   
 
In you, ruby.   
The pain   
You wake to is not yours. 


The candle, to me is a flicker of life and hope, there seems an element of surprise the embryo is there.

Could "the blood blooms clean" be the shedding of the lining of the uterus after the miscarriage.   

Crossed positions makes me think of "star-crossed lovers" who are not meant to be.

Does she blame herself for her inability to stay pregnant?

I have probably got this completely wrong but on first read, those are the thoughts that came to me. 

I shall now read the comments.
  
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #8 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 7:55am
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Hey Yvonne,

Well....i read this quite a bit before i researched the name. i told myself i would understand this poem without anyone else's opinion, because it would so dense. And that was the challenge i had set for myself. Since then, i became more and more fascinate by the poet and her life, so perhaps it aided in my dissection of her work.

But, before i read her biography, some of it made sense. Plath became more and more raw and emotional over time, yet at the same time, she condensed more of her closer feelings into metaphor. In this case, there is a series of overlapping metaphor, working off each other (some what) and admittingly, it is a very difficult poem to get a foothold into if the reader is either A: not well versed in Plath, B: not extensively read in poets heavy in symbol and metaphor, or C: both.

Ted Hughes (widower) states in his intro to ( i think)her short story collection "Johnny Panic and the Bible of Dreams" that Sylvia was concerned with not only chronicling her life in detail in her journals and then using those experiences as a fodder for her poetry (especially metaphor), she was also focused on using, what Ted refers to as, 'supersymbols'. Nick and the Candlestick, imho, is a prime example of symbols upon and in relationship to symbols. Everything is linked into reality, but part of the reality is emotion and that puts one of this poem's foot in the realm of abstraction.  
Forgive me for going on. Sylvia Plath has been an obsession of mine that i have not, yet been able to overcome and move on from. i dilute it with reading other fine poets instead. Someday i'll find a cure, until then....in addtion, keep in mind the feeling and imagery of a cave. By this time in her life, Plath considered herself very much isolated (she was separated from Ted) and she was suffering chronic depression (which led to her very unfortunate death). i do not say these things to spread gossip, they are, as Terence put, part and parcel of the poem. While she became a more powerful poet, she also sank into darkness (to use the cliche).

Okay, let me jump into the quizzical S3, and the last line of S2 that starts the sentence leading into S3:

Black bat airs  
 
Wrap me, raggy shawls,  
Cold homicides.  
They weld to me like plums
.

When i first started to try and decode this, the first thing i continued to think of was the old phrase, "You'll catch a death of cold" for some reason. i couldn't yank that out of my head. i admit, i still haven't deciphered this stanza.
What else sticks in my head is, in other poems, Sylvia using plums and/or plum colour in reference to bruising.
i take the black bat airs to be the 'darkness' of depression, how they surround her like shawls and bring cold death to her life. i can't get much more of this and i would be interested in hearing anyone else's take on this. 

So far, not much disagreement.

~tim
« Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2006 at 7:56am by Tim »  
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Terence
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #7 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 7:20am
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Yvonne, yes to some extent you would need a little background to catch-up, imo. The poem is not only dealing with her attitude towards her son but other personal factors that reflect her state of mind - a significant part of the poem.

I'm sure, though, that you can appreciate some of the basics relating to childbearing - "old cave of calcium icicles", "hung our cave with roses, with soft rugs" - and perhaps get a sense of what feelings are being expressed. Other than that, hopefully the personal background will be mentioned as ideas move along since they are part and parcel of the understanding, and the disagreements, on meaning.

         Terence
  
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #6 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 6:45am
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If you don't have the prior knowledge (about her son Nick) and other personal cues, is it possible to make correct sense of what she is saying in this poem?  I am having a tough time putting together the images to see the things you explain, without the explanation I'm just lost....
« Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2006 at 6:51am by sierra »  
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #5 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 3:07am
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S8 could also mean unplanned, but with the religious references ...
  
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Re: Nick and the Candlestick by Sylvia Plath
Reply #4 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 2:44am
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Terence,

Thank you so much for the clarification of S1. That adds another dimension to the poem i couldn't put my finger on. See, i told you i didn't have this picked apart yet.
This idea also entwines Nick and the N much closer together, since the flame image shows stabilization. Excellent.

Regarding S8, yes i think it is a play on the theme of Immaculate Conception, without saying so. The point being that one can easily wonder how life works and ask themselves this question of anyone, child or otherwise. A very clever addition to the Christ theme.

In fact, i would go so far as to say that S5 and 6 is talking about the failure of organized religion to help 'save' the N. Calling the church a 'pirana religion'. Using the exclamation "Christ!" to draw out both the comparison of Nick (later in S8 as you point out Terence) and in contrast to the church. So pleasantly thick and purposeful.

~tim
  
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